Mr Ian Cumming

Madras College Oral History Interview between Mr Ted Brocklebank (TB) and Mr Ian Cumming (IC), recorded on 15 07 2019. Transcribed by Veronica Whymant (VW)

[Start of Recording]

TB: The date is 15th July 2019 and we are interviewing Ian Cumming for the Madras Archive. Ian, remind us about your parentage. I can remember your mother and father and you living in Woodburn Terrace but tell us about that.

IC: Well, I wasn't born there. I was born in Wallace Street, almost next to your house, was it? Anyway, I was born there and when I was about three months old we moved to Woodburn Terrace and that's where you remember me living.

TB: Tell us about your parents.

IC: My father was Head of Geography at St. Andrews University and at Dundee also. He came from Elie, well, Lower Largo really. He reckoned there were two people of note who came from Lower Largo - himself and Alexander Selkirk i.e. Robinson Crusoe! He went to Waid Academy, was Head Boy at Waid Academy. He also ran the Mile, won the Mile in the schoolboy Sports in Edinburgh.

TB: Did he go to Edinburgh University or did he go to St. Andrews University?

IC: He went to St. Andrews University and he got his PhD working in California on the oilfields in California in Pasadena.

TB: Tell me about your mother because she was a very prominent Councillor when I remember her!

IC: Yes. She was. She was from Dundee and her brother went out from Dundee, Dundee High School, to India to work with the Jute mills and he eventually became the boss of most of the Jute mills in the Calcutta area.

VW: What was his name?

IC: James. In the Second World War he was called up in to the British Army and he became General Slim's Aide de Camp out there and the army got surrounded in Burma and they surrendered but General Slim and Uncle Jimmy flew out on a Lysander so they got out!

TB: Very good! And how did your mother become involved in politics? Was she a graduate of St. Andrews as well?

IC: She was. She was one of my father's students.

VW: And what was her maiden name?

IC: Molly Braid.

TB: And they married and how did she become involved in Council affairs?

IC: I'm not quite sure. She was always very active. She was a good tennis player. I used to remember she always walked awfully fast! We were always running after her. She walked as fast as you walk! [Remark directed at VW]

TB: OK. So, you have a number of brothers and sisters. Tell us a little about these.

IC: I have two sisters. My older sister, she is still alive. She married Ronnie Hamilton and they have quite a family in St. Andrews still. David, Alistair and Michael's over the other side of the Tay. I have a younger sister called Dorothy who works in, or lives in Canada, British Columbia. A place called Kelowna. And I have a younger brother who lives in Taiwan. He's retired out there although he's still, like all businessmen, he's still involved in making money!

TB: Yes, Jim and I were at school together so I know him well. Right, let's talk about your years at Madras. Did you start in the Kinder or did you come to Madras from the local West Infant School?

IC: No, I started in Madras Kinder with Miss Robertson as the first teacher. She was a very orthodox teacher. Quite strict. Then we had Miss Williamson. That was a bit traumatic. During the war she fell in love with a soldier and, as far as we know, she was always in an awful bad mood and giving us the belt! Apparently it was romantic troubles she was having!

VW: May I ask either when was your year of birth or what year did you start at Madras?

IC: I was born in January 1935 and I started in 1939 at Madras.

TB: Yes, the first year of the war. So, who were, when you came in to Secondary School Norman MacLeod, I guess, would be the Headmaster, was he or was Petrie the Headmaster?

IC: Petrie was the Headmaster.

TB: And Norman MacLeod followed shortly thereafter?

IC: Yes. I suppose almost a year after. I've got a photo of Norman MacLeod.

TB: Yes, he was Headmaster when I was there.

IC: No, no, it's his son, Norman MacLeod.

TB: We'll look at these afterwards. Who were the memorable teachers during your time there? The kind of inspirational people. You know, all of us seem to kind of look back and say that was an inspirational teacher.

IC: The one we respected most and very capable was Miss Hamilton. She was the oldest one there, I think.

TB: What did she teach?

IC: This was Primary.

TB: It was Primary, oh, sorry, I'd moved you on to Secondary.

IC: Oh, Secondary. Oh, I don't want to talk about the Secondary teachers. There was Solo Sanderson who taught French. She couldn't maintain discipline at all so she wasn't a great teacher. Miss Brown, who I had great admiration for, she really knew her stuff and could teach it. Mr Caldwell, have you heard of him?

TB: Yes, I've heard of him.

IC: Geography teacher.

TB: Dougal Blue?

IC: Dougal Blue?

TB: English.

IC: No.

TB: He was the father of Jean Blue, one of the ones we've interviewed. He was the chap who wrote the School Song, Dougal Blue, but he was an English teacher. Maybe he was...

IC: Yes, Jean Blue wasn't that much older than me.

TB: This was her father.

IC: Ah! Yes. Jean Blue lived up in Lamond Drive.

TB: Yes but her father had gone by your time?

IC: No, I didn't know him.

TB: Petrie, he was your first Headmaster in Senior School, was he?

IC: No, it was MacLeod.

TB: Norman MacLeod, oh, sorry. How about Norman MacLeod.?

IC: Oh, that's right, there was a Petrie! He was probably the Headmaster when I went to school. Yes, I'd forgotten him.

TB: So, he wasn't that memorable?!

IC: No. I think I didn't have much to do with the Headmasters when I was five or six.

TB: How was Norman MacLeod as a Headmaster?

IC: Anonymous! I knew them fairly well. I went around with his son, Norman, so I was often in their house for meals and things like that so I knew him on a personal level. Yes, he wasn't a great disciplinarian or anything.

TB: He came from the island of Lewis, didn't he? He was a Hebridean anyway, I think.

IC: Yes, I think he was although you wouldn't have known it from him really. His son, Norman, never seemed to go up to the Hebrides. Mind you, in these days you didn't travel that far. It was difficult getting around.

TB: Was Charlie Anderson the Head of Classics when you were there?

IC: He came while I was there but he never taught me but he came and he seemed to be a reasonable teacher but I had no experience of him.

TB: So, who would be...

IC: Doctor Jock.

TB: Oh, Jock McDonald.

IC: He was a Mathematics teacher, Not particularly pleasant to be taught by and Johnnie Mason was the same. I blame them for failing Maths!

TB: They were really only interested in the people who were good at Maths - Jock McDonald and Johnnie Mason! I failed Maths, too.

IC: And Fergie. Miss Ferguson who I didn't have much time for either!

TB: Sorry, Jock McDonald lived near you.

IC: Jock McDonald was my neighbour almost.

IC: At this time, you must realise the place was full of soldiers. We had the Polish army stationed in the area and they were building defences up along the beach which was great for boys and gang huts and things like that!

TB: Were they actually around the School? Were they involved in the School, I mean, billeted?

IC: No, I lived in Woodburn Terrace and they were all round the beach area. We used to go down, they'd send us up to Nellie Watt's shop to get cigarettes and things for them.

TB: So, who were, apart from Norman MacLeod's son, who were the guys you were particularly close to at school?

IC: Oh, I've not mentioned John Gilchrist. He was a very good teacher.

TB: Classics teacher, yes.

IC: Who was I close to at School? None of them really when I think back to it. Miss Brown, she had a lot of time for me and helped me quite a bit.

TB: She was a wonderful teacher. 'Pussy' as we called her. I don't know where she got that nickname!

IC: No. Yes, she certainly had that nickname while I was at school.

TB: I'm trying to think of people who were around at that time that I knew of were people like Lawson Campbell and Charlie Whittet and Ronnie Tindall - these would be associates of yours?

IC: Charlie Whittet, Lawson Campbell, Walter Wilson - they were all in Korea with me. Roy Robertson, do you remember Roy?

TB: No, I don't remember him.

IC: He was the Painter.

TB: Robertson's, the Painters, yes. We'll come on to Korea in a minute but I'm still getting us through the School. So, Science, that would be Alfie Law who was there?

IC: That's right, yes. He was quite an interesting teacher.

TB: Would you describe any of them as inspirational or the way that they moulded what you were eventually to become?

IC: Well, Miss Brown probably and John Gilchrist were the two really who were inspirational. There was a chap, Wallace, who taught Geography.

TB: I remember him.

IC: He was terrible.

TB: I remember, him, yes. Mclees, was he there?

IC: Oh yes, I'd forgotten him! He was good. You had to respect what he was telling you.

TB: And Doc Gordon?

IC: No. I didn't have a Doc Gordon.

TB: So, OK, why did you not go to University when you passed your Highers? Why did you end up doing National Service?

IC: Because I didn't pass my Highers! In these days you sat Highers and if you didn't get them you sat your Prelims, University Prelims and I didn't do well enough to get to University the first time. So, in these days, we had draft, you see, and if you didn't have a place at University you were called up almost immediately. The Korean War was almost coming to an end then. The War didn't finish just like that, it went on peace talks for years! In Panmunjom. Anyway, I got called up to go to the Army or to the Services. You had to go to the Caird Hall in Dundee and when you got there, the Army Recruiting Board, which was the one I was sent to, we all wanted to get in to the RAF because the RAF weren't out in Korea, they were mainly stationed in Britain! Anyway, you went in to the Army recruiting place and they gave you an exam paper and you had to do this exam and then they came up and gathered all the papers and without looking at them they said, "I'm afraid you've all failed!" This was in the RAF place, sorry, I forgot. We went to the RAF first. We'd all failed and go down the corridor to the Army and that was it!

TB: So, that's how you ended up in Korea.

IC: Yes. I should say about that, it's quite interesting in that in Korea almost all the chaps had got called up from St. Andrews were out there and I wondered why that was and I asked and they said, "Well, people from big cities like London, when they don't have pavements under them they are completely lost" and the Londoners suffered terribly from homesickness so the soldiers in Korea were mainly Scots, Welsh or Irish.

TB: Interesting.

IC: Or from rural areas.

TB: Yes. Am I right in thinking that Lawson Campbell and Walter Wilson and you were all from Madras in the same year and all ended up in Korea?

IC: We were all prefects at the same time and I went to the Royal Engineers, Walter went to the Royal Artillery and Lawson went to REME and we were all different Regiments but we landed within half a mile of each other in Korea. And Roy Robertson, he was Infantry and Charlie Whittet was Infantry and we'd meet up at weekends and that.

TB: Oh, that's interesting and did you see any action at that time?

IC: Yes. The peace talks were going on but at night we went in to the demilitarised zone. There was a zone between North Korea and South Korea and you'd creep along and you'd meet the North Koreans and you'd have a fire-fight. And in our tent (we lived in tents in these days), three got killed. It was very stupid. There was no need to do this but that's what they did!

TB: OK. How old were you at that time?

IC: Eighteen, nineteen.

TB: So, you came from St. Andrews. The most violent action you'd seen before that was on the rugby field!

IC: Yes!

TB: Yes, it must have been quite an experience though, at that age, to be thrown straight in to something like that?

IC: Well, not really. I fancied myself as a soldier! I'd become a paratrooper before I went out there and you mentioned Dave Henderson. Dave was in my class at school. A very handsome chap. Here he is, there, he's Captain of the Athletics Team. And he always fancied himself, Dave! He was a Sports' Champion - he was a Scottish Schoolboy Javelin Champion. On Sports Day, he was setting up the School record for the High Jump and the whole School was round him. We were out at University Park and he waited until he had everyone's attention, you know, and he took his tracksuit down but he took his shorts down, too! In front of the whole School! It was quite funny!

TB: Quite funny!

IC: But concerning paratrooping, I did my jumps and I got my Wings and I came back to St. Andrews on leave (this was before going out to Korea) and everyone was saying, "Have you heard?! David Henderson's joining the Army and he's going to be a Paratrooper!" I was a bit annoyed! He wasn't even in the Army at that time.

TB: He did end up in the Army though, I think?

IC: Yes. In the end he was a Paratrooper.

TB: I think he became an Officer. He was, he ended up living next door to me in Glasgow, David Henderson!

IC: Did he?!

TB: Yes.

IC: He married his cousin.

TB: Yes. Died far too young but he was working for Shell when I knew him. He lived next to me in Clarkston in Glasgow. Anyway, that was David. So you saw, how long were you in Korea?

IC: About sixteen months, I think.

TB: Sixteen months, yes. And then you came back and then did you have to, sort of, re-sit exams to go to the Dental School?

IC: No. Oh no. When I got home my father said, "I want you to write a letter." Well, to cut a long story short, when I came on disembarkation leave I met Ian Johnston and he was a dental student and he was telling me what a terrific time he was having as a dental student! Now, my father, before I went out to Korea, said "Promise me you'll know what you're going to do when you come back!" Well, I had no idea what I was going to do so I'd met Ian and my father says, "You've got to decide now what you're going to do!" And I said, "Well, how about becoming a Dentist?" And he said, "Right!" And he dictated this letter for me to write, asking for an ex-serviceman's remission and saying what a good rugby player I was and how I'd got a medal in Korea and that sort of thing and before I knew it, I was a dental student!

TB: And was it for serving in Korea that you got the medal or was it for any particular...

IC: Yes, it was just the Korean Service medal.

TB: And so you then went to, that was Dundee Dental College was it, you then went to?

IC: Yes. That was St. Andrews University.

TB: Yes, it was, Queen's College Dundee was part of St. Andrews University in those days, yes. So, it was because of Ian Johnston that you decided on that as a career. OK. So, where did the interest in the polar areas come from?

IC: I was always a keen birdwatcher and it was really my interest in birds that took me down there. I should tell you another thing. When I went to University, I fell in love with a girl in my year - Yvonne. She's from Bangkok and while I'd been out east I'd taken a fancy to these eastern women. They looked very attractive!! And when I came back, she was in my year and I thought 'what a lovely girl! That's exactly what I'm looking for! But I'll have to wait, she's got to grow about another foot taller!'

TB: She was a bit small, yes!

IC: But she didn't!

TB: So she studied dentistry alongside you, did she?

IC: She was doing Medicine. The Dentists and the Medics were in the same year.

TB: Oh, of course they were! Queen's College did Medicine, yes. And so how did she feel then when you decided that you were going away down to the polar areas?

IC: No, I'll tell you, on our very first date, well, she wanted me to take her to a Dundee High School ball. So I hadn't been out with her and I said, "Well, we'd better have a date first" and we went to the cinema. It was a Jerry Lewis film. Completely forgettable. And they had a short called Gateway to the Antarctic and it was about South Georgia and once the film was over we said, "How would you like to go down there?" She said, "Oh, it would be a great adventure!" Anyway, when I qualified as a Dentist I was looking for jobs and the job of a Dentist to the whaling fleet came up so I applied for that and I became dentist to South Georgia Territories and the whaling fleet.

TB: So, you were based in South Georgia and the whalers came by there to...?

IC: Yes, but the Falkland Island Dependencies were my employer and the Antarctic bases were the Falkland Island Dependencies.

TB: Oh, so how long were you down there?

IC: Two years.

TB: Two years. So you would know the Falklands as well?

IC: Yes, our son was born in the Falklands. Yvonne was pregnant when we went down there.

TB: Right.

IC: Which wasn't the best idea. As she'd been employed as doctor to the whaling fleet on the journey down and in South Georgia she was the doctor. But she was pregnant and she had to go off to the nearest place they had a doctor and that was the Falkland Islands.

TB: Oh. A great adventure.

IC: It was a great adventure, yes. Have a look at some of these. This is the Dundee Telegraph, the Evening Telegraph. They just wrote up about Yvonne and I being down there.

TB: Yes, we'll have a look at more of these later when we come to the end of the written bit. OK, so you served your spell for two years or so down there and then did you decide you were coming back up to Scotland?

IC: Yes. We came back up. We got a boat to Montevideo from the Falklands and Yvonne had an uncle and aunt who lived in San Paulo in Brazil so we went there and they had a revolution there and we couldn't leave the country for a while. We were sort of stuck there for a few weeks and we came back and I had to get a job. Now, most of the people I'd been working on, the whalers, came from the Shetland Islands and the Highlands so I saw a job up in Shetland and I took it so we worked in Shetland for a couple of years.

TB: Ah! Another great place for wild birds so you were able to carry on your interest in ornithology.

IC: That's right.

TB: And, again, a place a bit like the Falklands I would gather because Orcadians, Shetlanders, Lewis people were whalers. A lot of them went down there.

IC: That's right. Very pleasant people.

TB: Yes, an amazing place, Shetland. And so, after you'd had another couple of years there did you start to think of getting down nearer to home?

IC: Yes, I got a job in Cupar, which didn't last long because we ran out of patients with, a dentist, Clark - did you know him?

TB: No. I've got a Cupar dentist but it's not Clark.

IC: He was a very good rugby player. Played for Perth [inaudible].

IC: And then we were running out of patients and we decided to open in St. Andrews but it fell through so I got a job in Dundee and I worked in Reform Street for the next twenty-six years or something.

TB: Yes, I remember you always being in Dundee. And did you find that you sort of settled in to Dundee easily? Was it something that you enjoyed doing?

IC: Yes.

TB: I can't think of anything more horrible than looking into people's mouths!

IC: It wasn't just in people's mouths, I can tell you! I had to take an appendix out in South Georgia!

TB: But that was clearly the work that you enjoyed?

IC: Yes. It was.

TB: To what extent then has ornithology and your interest in wild birds, wild animals and so on really been the other side of your life? Because I know you spend a lot of your time...

IC: It's ruled my life more or less.

TB: Yes.

IC: Do you know I found a new bird breeding in Scotland?

TB: Oh! Which one was that?!

IC: It was the Lapland Bunting and it's all in this book here. They tell the story of me finding it. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

TB: Where was it that you found it?

IC: Up in the Highlands. [Searches in the book] Here it is. "Ian Cumming saw a male and two females and his wife found an empty nest." I took my kids up to see Highland birds and I couldn't believe it when I saw this bird! There it is, there. I knew I'd never seen that bird before.

TB: Interesting. I wonder if you knew an old friend of mine? He was very keen on Ornithology. He made his life of it in Ireland. Desmond Nethersole-Thompson. Did you know Desmond?

IC: I got drunk with Desmond a few times!

TB: Yes! And Adam Watson?

IC: Yes and Adam.

TB: They were very good friends of mine in my days.

IC: Were they?

TB: Yes, very much!

IC: Adam died?

TB: Died recently.

IC: Just recently.

TB: Yes, so they were wonderful pals of mine in my Aberdeen days. You know I went up to visit Desmond at his home. He wrote, certainly he did studies on Corn Bunting.

IC: And Dotterel.

TB: And Dotterel. Greenshank.

IC: Yes.

TB: Greenshank and...

IC: Snow Bunting.

TB: And was the first, I think, to see, to know that the Osprey was back. I think that was one of Desmond's claims to fame!

IC: He wrote a book on The Cairngorms.

TB: Yes, with Adam. Yes, I've got that book, yes. Yes, that's interesting so we've got some people in common up there. But no, I've nothing like your degree of expertise but I used to be very keen on birds at one time!

IC: Were you?

TB: And when I started in the awful way as an 'egger'. I used to collect birds' eggs as a boy, as did Desmond!

IC: Sure, but he was a bit older than you. He had an excuse.

TB: He had an excuse, yes, my generation didn't really have an excuse other than it got us out in the countryside and we learnt something about wildlife. OK, so the one thing that I haven't really touched on with you very much is your career as a rugby player because you were a very fine rugby player!

IC: I wasn't really!

TB: I think you were! You had a reputation.

IC: But I played for the University and for Madras FPs [Former Pupils] and I was President of the FP Rugby Club for a while.

TB: Was that how you got in, did you get to know Norman Lilley through rugby?

IC: No, no. We were in the same University team.

TB: Ah ha. I believe he's not very well, Norman?

IC: No, it's a tragedy.

TB: Yes, he is a good pal of yours.

IC: He can't talk and he can't walk or sit up.

TB: So, really, to round it off, looking back what kind of a school do you think Madras was? Do you think Madras was, a lot of us, looking back, have great memories of schooldays and things and say, "Well, that's what shaped me!" but did you have these kind of affectionate feelings for Madras?

IC: I certainly did. I thought it was a wonderful school! The cloisters and everything were just great! Walking round up one side - women going one way and men, the other!

TB: Yes.

IC: I had a pet Jackdaw and on my way home from school it used to fly in and land on my shoulder!

TB: I think, I had memories of that. Certainly at the Burgh School there was a guy who, a Jackdaw came to meet him at lunchtimes.

IC: Oh yes. Yes.

TB: Books like 'Kes' and so on, talk about boys bringing up Sparrowhawks and Kestrels and things like that and I never did any of that, I have to say. But did you, in your time as an explorer, did you ever explore under the Quadrangle? Did you know all the passages and suchlike that went under there?

IC: I certainly went down quite a few of them with Norman MacLeod, the Headmaster's son!

TB: Yes, I discovered a way down through the Library.

IC: And up in to the turrets, too!

TB: The turrets on top, yes.

VW: So, what were these passages under the Quadrangle? I haven't heard of them. What were they for?

TB: Yes, well you could access them, I'm not sure what they were for but you could access them through the Library floor. You could take up some floorboards and get down under the school.

IC: And the Lade Braes burn was rerouted through the back of the School to a couple of mills down towards the harbour and when they were building there, they fell through in to them and we went hundreds of yards down with torches!

TB: Yes, searching for them.

IC: Yes, it was really muddy! Yes and if you go down to the Cathedral, at the back of the Cathedral you see the same...

TB: The burn comes down and goes down to the harbour.

IC: That's right.

TB: I've been down that one.

IC: Yeah, well that goes right up to Madras!

TB: Does it? Does it?! Is that where it goes in the other direction?

IC: Yes.

TB: I've been on the bit that goes down from behind the Cathedral, down to the bit at the harbour.

IC: To the harbour, yes.

TB: Yes, well, well, fascinating times! Yes. OK, well I think that's probably all of the sort of...

IC: I'm sorry I've wasted your time.

VW: You haven't wasted my time at all! It's been very interesting.

TB: I think it's been very interesting. I think we're going to enjoy hearing some of your reminiscences but clearly the whole South Polar adventures have been seminal in your life because all of these photographs around here are of things - that's an Albatross, right? Either that or a Fulmar. It's an Albatross!

IC: Aye but what type of Albatross? Well, you should be able to tell.

TB: I'm not sure that I can differentiate between one Albatross and another.

IC: Well, they're brown for a start, these ones. These are light-mantled sooty Albatrosses.

TB: Ah ha. I don't think I would have been able to tell. They are the same family as the Fulmar, aren't they, really, but a different style of bird?

IC: They're as much the same family as Fulmar as we are chimpanzees.

TB: Chimpanzees, OK, oh well, I'll live with that. OK, thanks very much, Ian, that's been very interesting. What I'm wondering is if we're able to borrow some of your photographs?

[51:23 - 57:13 looks through some photographs but too vague to feel worth transcribing]

TB: OK, if I may I'm borrowing one, two, three, four, five and I'll get these back to you once we've photographed them and got them in the archive.

IC: Well, thank you very much.

TB: Well, thank you very much.

IC: It's not often you get the chance to talk about yourself!

TB: Well, no, I think it is a useful kind of a thing, this archive because well, I found Glen Pride very interesting because Glen, you know, I saw him as a kind of a senior figure who hung around the rugby team. I'd no idea really anything about Glen but he had a very interesting background, Glen Pride, both in, not only from the architect point of view but he'd done a degree in Maths before he ever went to study architecture and, you know, was an all-round guy! You know, he was the 100m Champion, he played for the north midlands at rugby, he won the knife for Mental Arithmetic, you know, all this kind of thing so you had a fully rounded picture of Glen and now, he has a marvellous art collection out there in that house he's got at Rummond.

IC: Has he?

TB: Yes, a little art gallery with a lot of originals by people like Anne Redpath, Joan Eardley and people like that! You know, the Scottish Modernists. So, fascinating!

IC: Yes. These paintings are by a chap in Strathkinness, Jeff Bevan.

TB: I know the name. I know the name, Jeff Bevan.

IC: He was one of my patients and he was telling me about a storm he'd been in crossing the Channel, on the ferry boat, and they were stuck outside Dover and they couldn't get in and the Morning Cloud, which was Heath's yacht.

TB: Yes.

IC: Sank in it and I was telling him about a storm I'd been in on the Kisterdam and I said, "Oh, it's my birthday tomorrow and we're having a party - would you like to come along?" And he came along and he gave me that painting. It wasn't framed. It was still wet at the time. He'd painted it that afternoon!

TB: Wow. Had he had a photograph of the boat? Did he know what it looked like?

IC: He knew all these things! And he said, "I've always wanted to do a whaling ship!" and he did this one up here. That one there, which was the boat we went down on, the boat in the background.

TB: Gosh, they look like rusty, old hulks, don't they?

IC: Yes, yes. Rusty, smelly, old things!

TB: Yes, this was where the Salvesens made their money, wasn't it? Down in Georgia, places like that, South Georgia. Ian - thank you very much! We've used up a lot of your time! Oh, I need to take a couple of photographs of you before we go.

[End of Recording]