Mr Ian Docherty

Madras College Oral History Interview between Mr Ted Brocklebank (TB) and Mr Ian Docherty (ID), recorded on 24 07 2019. Transcribed by Veronica Whymant (VW)

[Start of Recording]

TB: Ian, you obviously come from a long line of St. Andreans. Perhaps you could tell us (both sides of your family) a little bit about your background?

ID: Right. Well, both pairs of grandparents came to St. Andrews in the first decades of the 20th Century. My grandfather Docherty was brought up in Dundee and my grandfather Geddes came from Fochabers originally and he was, eventually, the Manager of the Maypole Dairy Company shop in Market Street before purchasing a shop across the road from it, which became Geddes's Fruiterers and Greengrocers. My grandfather Docherty worked with the railway company and he, latterly, was Foreman Porter at St. Andrews Station. So, I'm the third generation.

TB: Of Docherty's?

ID: Of Docherty's and Geddes's. My mother was a Geddes.

TB: So, the first school you attended - was it a local school or was it Madras Kindergarten?

ID: It was Madras Kinder, as it was called. So, I was at Madras from 1942 to 1955.

TB: So, who's memorable in your days?  Let's start with the Kinder, which teachers do you remember?

ID: Well, I remember all the names! Miss Robertson had the Infants (1 and 2, as they were called); Miss Gartley had Primary One and Two, which is the equivalent of 3 and 4 nowadays; Miss Williamson had Four and Five, no, Three and Four and then Miss Smith - I think we may have been the first class to have Miss Smith in the Qualifying Class, Primary Five. Before her, Miss Hamilton was around but she retired, I think, just before we went in to the Qualifying class.

TB: Were you always a bright, brainy pupil, an average pupil or how would you describe yourself?

ID: I think slightly above average! I was usually in the top three or four in the class.

TB: Who would be your companions from your days in the Kinder? Which kids did you pal about with?

ID: Well Malcolm Gillespie and I were great buddies in those days and right through Secondary School. We sort of went different ways at University. He did Science and I did Arts. Who else would there be? Particularly, oh, Ronald Reid. Ronald Reid. Tommy Haddow and then, a year younger, there was Douglas Stafford. Kenneth Miller, who was a bit older. There were a lot of kids lived around here [start of Largo Road]. My grandparents lived in Whitehill Terrace. My Geddes grandparents. And these were all family homes in those days.

TB: And we've talked about your companions.  Did any of these Primary School teachers make an impression on you?

ID: Well, Miss Gartley. I remember Miss Gartley taking me along to Innes's (or the Citizen Office, as it was called in those days) to select a prize for a prize-giving. I don't think I, oh, I think I had a prize in the Infant's class but I was usually just out of the prizes!

TB: And then, when you went up to Madras, who was the Headmaster at that time?

ID: Norman MacLeod.

TB: How did Norman MacLeod impress you?

ID: Well, I didn't have an awful lot to do with him. I was never on the mat for being referred to him! What I do remember is that I took up Greek in Third Year. There were only two or three of us in the Greek class and until Charlie Anderson came, he came maybe about Christmas of that year, we had one period of Greek a week with Norman MacLeod, whose nickname was 'Tusker'. And he was in the Rotary Club so the period we had Greek with him was on a Wednesday afternoon. The first period after lunch on a Wednesday, which was the Rotary Club day, so we had to wait quite a while! We ended up with half a period!

TB: And which of the other teachers do you recall either with affection or otherwise?

ID: Well, I got on well with most of them. 'Pussy' Brown, Miss Brown, she encouraged me a lot and in particular in History. Mr Gilchrist, Charlie Anderson and then there was Miss Affleck who encouraged me musically.

TB: Did you have Doc Gordon as a History teacher?

ID: Only in Class Six when I did Higher History. We didn't get to do Higher History until Class Six.

TB: Any others? Like Sandy McLees in English?

ID: I had him for English in Five and Six. Maths, oh, we started off with a Miss Craig, who taught my mother. She died of cancer during my first year so then we had, I think, Johnnie Mason in Second Year. Third and Fourth Year, Doctor Jock. But I wasn't good at Maths so I ended up not doing Higher Maths. I did Lower Maths. I tried hard to do it in Fourth Year.

TB: That's interesting. Other people have variously described Doc Jock. Those who were good at Maths, nothing but good words to say about Jock McDonald, those who weren't maybe so good at Maths say he basically left them aside and concentrated on those who were good at Maths.

ID: Oh, I couldn't comment on that really. I've no memory of that happening. I didn't feel neglected!

TB: OK. And Miss Affleck. You actually had a very good singing voice, didn't you?

ID: Well, some people have said that, yes!

TB: But did you win, I mean there was a prize, wasn't there?

ID: Yes, I won the solo singing.

TB: Solo singing, yes. Were you a Debater? Did you get in to the Debating Club?

ID: No. Not really. The main reason being that, after school, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, I worked as a message boy for my grandfather's shop and that was Friday night and the Debating Society was Friday. I went along in the year that I was Head Boy. I wasn't working by that time so I did go along but I was never really in to it very much. I think the only time I spoke at a Debating competition was when I was teaching and in a staff/pupil debate.

TB: Athletics was another great interest of yours. You were a fine athlete. Tell us about that.

ID: That was my main sport. Started off in First Year trying to be a sprinter but I wasn't really a sprinter but I had endurance so I went on to do, I won the Half Mile, Mile, got a place in the Quarter Mile, sort of thing. I think I got to the final of the 220 as a Junior in the 100 but there were other faster sprinters than me.

TB: So, did you carry that on to Fife level?

ID: Oh yes.

TB: Oh yes, beyond Madras?

ID: Oh yes, I won the Fife Schools' Mile a couple of times in Fifth and Sixth Years. Broke the record. Held the School Mile Record. That had been held by Johnnie Keir - I see him on some of these photographs - but I never quite managed to break his Half Mile Record.

TB: The other great athlete around that time, of course, was David Henderson.

ID: Yes.

TB: He seemed to excel at a number of different disciplines.

ID: Well, he played rugby, he played cricket, he was quite a good High Jumper and Long Jumper but his main event was the Javelin. He won the Scottish Schools' Javelin title in his Sixth Year.

TB: And were you in the same year or was he older?

ID: No, he was a couple of years ahead.

TB: So, you were Head Boy in Class Six and I remember that. Who was the Head Girl that year?

ID: Catherine Hendry. Now Catherine Brunton.

TB: Yes, I know Catherine. We're going to be trying to interview her for this series as well. I came in to First Year and I, sort of, looked up to people like the Head Boy and Head Girl. You seemed quite strict to me at that time.

ID: I did?!

TB: Yes. A bit of a disciplinarian, I thought.

ID: Really?

TB: Yes.

ID: I mean, we had no Prefects.

TB: Yes, it was just a Head Boy and a Head Girl.

ID: That's right, for a couple of years. I don't know what Dr. Thompson, whether he reintroduced them or what. I had a feeling he did when he came but that was after I left.

TB: No, my recollection was that you were quite strong on discipline and boys running around the Quad and things like that and sorting us out!

ID: Really?

TB: I seem to remember that, yes. So, you went on to St. Andrews University?

ID: Yes.

TB: And was that to do Classics?

ID: History.

TB: History.

ID: I had to do Latin in First Year but apart from that...

TB: Then went on to do History. What particular period did you study? Were you a Medieval Historian?

ID: No, my degree's Modern and Medieval.

TB: Modern and Medieval.

ID: But I did more Modern than Medieval. In my final Honours exams there were nine papers, one of which was a General Essay paper and I think maybe two of them were Medieval so that's six. I had two on my Special Subject, which was the Reformation in Scotland, two on my Foreign Period, which was European History 1890 to 1980, or something like that, I can't remember exactly.

TB: Who was the Professor at that time? Who were the people that taught you?

ID: Well, for my Special Subject it was Ronald Cant. There were just three of us in the class. For my Foreign Period it was a lady whose name I have forgotten. She was the Honourable something or other but I've just forgotten her name. And then there was Medieval History - Donald Watt; Modern History - Norman Gash. I also was quite friendly, although I can't remember being taught by him, Geoffrey Seed. Dr. Geoffrey Seed. And the Professor of Medieval History, we were his first class when he started, was Lionel Butler. That was in 1955. Yes.

TB: And how many students would there have been at St. Andrews University at that time?

ID: Twelve hundred here and about eight hundred over in Dundee. Queens College.

TB: So, the University has really grown tremendously since then?

ID: Yes.

TB: Did you feel that St. Andrews University in these days, because it was so small, you were somehow less of a University than, say, Edinburgh or Glasgow?

ID: No. No, we took them on at Sport.

TB: Did you carry on your Athletics at University?

ID: Oh yes. Yes. I got my Blues for Athletics and Cross Country Running. I took up cross country running at University. I didn't keep up the Rugby.

TB: Did you cross with Donald McGregor at all?

ID: Yes, we, well, he was two years behind me and we were in the Athletics and Cross Country Teams together.

TB: Did you feel that he had more talent as a runner than you?

ID: Not at that time, no. Certainly not in his First year. Yeah, I always remember - his First year would be my Third year and the Scottish Universities Athletics Championships at Craiglockhart in Edinburgh that year and I was third in the Three Miles and I think I lapped Donald. He went away home over the summer, he must have trained, I think he worked hard at it and obviously something to do with metabolism comes in to it and he came back and he was transformed! I've got a photograph somewhere of him and me finishing First Equal in the Cross Country race along North Street, against Aberdeen University. But he went on and on and just got, he became an outstanding marathon runner and ran in the Olympics in 1972 in Munich.

TB: Yes, he's a member of our Archive Group.

ID: I haven't seen him for ages.

TB: Was there ever any doubt in your mind about what you wanted to do as a career?

ID: Oh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I considered the Ministry. I considered Law. Well, probably not after I left school. I ended up teaching.

TB: Where was your first teaching post?

ID: Bell Baxter. [Cupar]

TB: Did you stay in Bell Baxter, basically, throughout your career?

ID: No, no. I stayed there, I covered a four-year period - 1960-64 - but I had a year out in the middle with a Rotary Foundation Fellowship, '62-63 [1962-1963], and went and studied at John Hopkins University in Baltimore for a year. Just for a year.

TB: You weren't tempted to stay in America?

ID: No. I enjoyed the experience but no.

TB: So, where did you go after you came back from America?

ID: I went back to Bell Baxter. I had a year and then the Principal Teacher's job came up. The Principal teacher of History, was retiring. I was encouraged to apply for it but I didn't have the experience so I didn't get it. The man who got it, an older man who'd been abroad, came from Kirkcaldy High School so I applied for his job at Kirkcaldy High School and got it and stayed there for fourteen years, the last seven of which I was Principal Teacher of History.

TB: I'm trying to get the dates right.

ID: Well, that was from '64-78 [1964-1978].

TB: Did you cross paths with Gordon Brown?

ID: He was a pupil when I went there. I didn't teach him. I think he was in S3 when I went in 1964.

TB: Yes, I think he left early. He sat his Highers early.

ID: Well, he was in what was called the E Class. Douglas MacIntosh was the Director of Education and he encouraged outstanding pupils not that, it didn't benefit them all. Some of them fell by the wayside.

TB: No. Yes, I know that. I got to know Gordon later on. So, you didn't really have much experience of him?

ID: Yes, the then Principal Teacher of History wasTom Dunn, he mentions Tom Dunn in his autobiography actually.

TB: And so, did you end your career at Kirkcaldy?

ID: No, no. 1978 I moved as an Assistant Head Teacher, an Assistant Rector, to Harris Academy in Dundee and that's where I ended my career. I was there from '78 to '97 [1978-1997]. I had a wee spell as Acting Depute.

TB: Did you find that moving from direct teaching to, I suppose, more admin, did you find that was an easy transition?

ID: In some ways. In other ways, I mean it reached the stage where I felt I should have qualified as a detective rather than as a teacher, you know, dealing with discipline issues.

TB: So, you ended your career as a Depute Head at Harris.

ID: Yes, it would be called that now. They don't call them Assistant Heads.

TB: And I know that all your life - indeed you mentioned that you had been at one stage considering the Ministry - you've been very much involved in church affairs pretty well all your life through the Baptist Church.

ID: Yes.

TB: That was a Geddes family thing, I think, was it? Or was it a Docherty family thing?

ID: Both.

TB: Both sides.

ID: Yes.

TB: Do you want to talk a bit about that?

ID: Yeah. I don't know all the details but I do know that my grandfather Geddes was baptised in St. Andrews Baptist Church round about 1907 or something like that. My grandfather Docherty had been in Membership of the old Maxwelltown Baptist Church in Dundee so he, my grandfather Docherty was the choirmaster of the church and my grandfather Geddes, for many years, was the Treasurer of the church. My dad, at different times, was Treasurer and Secretary. He was Secretary of the church for twenty-five years. When he gave up I took it over and did another twenty-five years, so, between us, we were Church Secretary's for fifty years. Yeah, what more would you like to know about?

TB: The Baptist Church, I always felt, was a very welcoming church.

ID: It's got that reputation. I think it's justified, yes.

TB: Yes, you know, simple thing like at Lammas Market time, the Baptist Church doors were always open for people to come in and have a cup of tea.

ID: We did that for a while but it got more and more difficult to get people, to give their time for it so eventually it withered away.

TB: Yes. Did you find that sad?

ID: I think our congregation, like most churches, the core is an aging one although recently we've had a lot of young retired people moving to St. Andrews who are, I mean we are very encouraged at the moment with our church. We've just called a new Minister - he was inducted on Sunday - and he's from Congo originally. He's an African. We have a large worshiping congregation. We get a lot of students. We would have two hundred on a Sunday morning.

TB: So, that's a rather different story than we're hearing from most churches. I mean, the church I know most about, I suppose, is the Holy Trinity Town Church, which is in a sad way at the moment with a declining congregation and an elderly congregation and rapidly, finding it can't even afford to pay for repairs to the church.

ID: I know, yes.

TB: This seems to be pretty common in churches generally. I mean the Baptist Church is, as you say, doing well and I know that the Roman Catholic Church is doing well and having, I have a son in Glasgow who lives close to the South Side Mosque and it's amazing how Islam has so many followers and yet our traditional churches just don't seem to be attracting people in the way they used to.

ID: There are other congregations in St. Andrews that are doing well. The Free Church of Scotland came to St. Andrews, what, twenty, maybe more than twenty years ago. They don't have a building of their own. We moved out of our building on Sunday mornings up to Kilrymont at the beginning of this century because we had outgrown it. We were having to have two morning services. The same thing has happened to the Free Church. They've now moved their morning services. They were using our building and they've now moved to Greenside Halls. Holy Trinity Halls. There's a church called Cornerstone, which meets in the Town Hall. Basically, it's the evangelical churches that are attracting people. I don't want to sound critical but there are certain issues in society and it seems to me that the, well certainly the Church of Scotland is moving with society rather than standing firm on fundamentals of the Faith.

TB: That's interesting. Do you remember Sandy Smith who was in my year at Madras? His father was Bill Smith, the farmer.

ID: Yes. He went to America, didn't he?

TB: Yes, he's in Houston, in Texas, and he's an Elder in a Presbyterian Church. Memorial Drive Presbyterian Church in Houston, Texas, which has a congregation of thousands and they open the church all day on a Sunday for different faiths, but the principal time is in the morning and that's when the Presbyterian faith come and, you know, they're inundated with members! We don't seem to have that same power here to attract people in these faiths, the traditional Protestant faiths.

ID: It's not just Britain. I mean, this is true all over Western Europe. [Telephone rings]

TB: I was going to ask you, do you feel that, do you ever feel that maybe you took the wrong turn when you went in to teaching and that you might have been better going for the Ministry?

ID: No.

TB: You feel fulfilled in having been a teacher?

ID: Yes, I enjoyed, well, for the most part I enjoyed my career.

TB: And how about education in Scotland now? Tell us a little bit more about your experience of education. I mean, my two sons went to Madras and they didn't learn in the same way that I learned by rote and I talk about Shakespeare and I can quote from plays and so on. They had none of that. Education seems to be changing in Scotland and, indeed, in Madras. Is that a good thing?

ID: I really can't comment. I'm glad I'm not involved, put it that way. I'm glad I've been through the situation but, no, I don't know.

TB: Madras has got a new Headmaster now who seems to have made a reputation for turning round schools that were having problems elsewhere in Fife, and Madras's educational reputation, I gather, is rising again I think, having not been very good in recent years.

ID: Yes.

TB: Would you have any particular knowledge of that?

ID: No.

TB: No. I suppose the only other thing is that I have a great affection for the six years that I spent at Madras and I felt that they shaped me in many ways and took me from where I was to wherever I went. How about you? What do you think you owe to Madras, the Madras of your time?

ID: Well! A lot! A lot! I mean, I was encouraged by my teachers. I will not be critical of any of them. Obviously some meant more to me than others but yes, I think I got a good education.

TB: And beyond education? Inspiration from, you talked about 'Pussy' Brown. It's fascinating, we've done several interviews and everybody has said 'Pussy' Brown was inspirational and she certainly was to me!

ID: Yes. She was a lovely lady. Really enthusiastic. I mean, she taught my parents as well! So did, I think, Solo Sanderson did as well. I wasn't great at French but I did my Higher French with her.

VW: Do you think there was a continuity of, sort of, generations and that if the teachers taught your parents that they then had a familiarity with the children when they then came to Madras?

ID: Yes. Yes. I always remember Charlie Anderson, who had been in the same class at school as my uncle Jack. My dad's younger brother and then he was still there when my cousin, Margaret, came along ten years later and spoke about her uncle Jack, too! Yes, I mean, I think that happens. I don't know whether it is happening now or not. The teachers maybe move on more quickly. I tended, maybe I stayed too long at the jobs I had but, I think, in a way, I'm glad I didn't eventually become a Rector.

TB: Because?

ID: Well, it's a pretty hard, thankless task, I think. There's so many demands! I mean, the increasing demands of education on teachers and I'm aware, too, that there's a decline in standards of behaviour amongst pupils. That's partly because of the way society's changed.

TB: That's great, Ian, thank you very much. I think that just about covers it.

VW: OK, thank you very much.

ID: Thank you.

[End of Recording]